Browse
HYK: Having to run an independent space, and to work as a curator and artist(註1), yet this time you are invited specifically as an artist, what’s your take on the multiple roles you have to perform?
HFC: Art space needs content, this is why curating is essential to Run Amok. Before we decided to stop operating the space, we have produced more than 20 exhibitions, half of which was handled by me. When it comes to curating, I did not assume a specific position, nor did I have any formal training, it is usually intuitive and I normally work with artists whose art practices I find interesting. When I first return to Malaysia, I did not know many people from the local art scene, and I did not get many replies from the emails I wrote to artists about potential collaborations. I don’t always work with artist in a traditional sense. I had to evaluate what are our resources when it comes to exhibition making. For instance, we featured drawings by an uncle who we chanced upon in a local flea market in our inaugural exhibition. He claimed that he could see ghosts and other presences, and turned his encounters into drawings. The flea market is not far from the gallery and it is one of our resources.
When I work with artists as a curator, I have to be reasoned and logical. I did enjoy the process but it is quite different to artmaking. It is a luxury to be able to be involved in a month long research residency program. Tilapia fish is my research subject, and I received great support when it comes to sourcing ingredients for a Tilapia dish. Perhaps this is my first ever residency and it feels like a treat, I could switch from being reasoned to being intuitive and spontaneous in the creative process. I think the difference in the switch is palpable, at the moment, I do enjoy working as a visual artist, and I can work independently. Compared to say, one of the exhibitions I’ve curated – Eating Wind, I had to work with 13 artists, it was no easy task.
I sometimes questioned my academic qualification when it comes to curating, but after working for a while, it is quite clear that I am engaging exhibition making as a visual artist. Of course, it is both an advantage and weakness. I once read from a text written by an Southeast Asian curator, where he postulated the idea of exhibition making as a form of art history writing. It is a controversial statement, but must we only engage exhibition making from the western point of view, where art history is only for those who is academically trained. Maybe this is “anti-elitist” way of curating.
HYK: In recent years, some independent spaces in Tainan have taken initiatives to establish dialogue with local community through programming and exhibition. Take the The Province Boys exhibition curated by the Howl Space for instance, they involved local talents such as calligrapher, billboard painter and traditional embroiderer; or the community newsletter produced by the Absolute Space, both as attempts to define the idea of “local”. And to reflect on Run Amok’s past exhibitions, the one that left the deepest impression in me was the one that featured works by the uncle who claims that he could see “ghosts”. The focus on the local vernacular culture, in a way, underlines the different approaches taken by the independent spaces and the commercial galleries, whereby the former seeks connection with the local community.
HFC: Maybe it has something to do with our collective members. I don’t think there should be a clear divide between art and everyday life, and the supporting text we use are not just about art theories. Or, you may argue that art writing is not our strong suit but we are aware of how instrumental it can be in creating dialogues. Also, I don’t think it is obligatory for independent space to engage in community project, and Run Amok does not claim to be actively doing so, our main serving audience is the local art community.
There are a number of NGOs dedicated in carrying out community engagement projects. The reason I mentioned outsider artist simply because, at that time, I felt his works were suitable to generate dialogues in art space. Art should not too elitist, and there shouldn’t be only one form aesthetic, everyday visual culture could also be a form of aesthetic too. And sometimes, what the outsider artists could offer is a form of internalised culture, compared to seeing things through a pair of trained eyes by career-artist. Take this uncle’s works for instance, his drawing style in my view, was influenced by local temple mural art. It makes perfect sense for me to exhibit these works.
HYK: Looking at your art practice as a whole, through your works in photography, video and performance art, one can see the influence from art institution training. However in your curatorial practice, is it fair to say that you are trying to look for a different approach, one that is not necessarily about the exhibition being “finished” or “complete”, but more like to make a statement, to posit a different kind of aesthetic.
HFC: But we do care about exhibition design too! It is interesting you said that, maybe you are thinking from a museum curator’s point of view. We appropriated a non-art space into an art space, and it might not comply to the exhibition standard you are used to seeing… But in general how to see Run Amok’s exhibitions, do you think we compromised the exhibited artworks?
HYK: Let me explain myself, when I mentioned “finished” I wasn’t referring to the exhibition production quality. I was referring to the experimental nature in them that conscously reject typical exhibition models. And I don’t think it was a compromise, in fact they were close to what one would expect to see from independent art spaces. I must admit this is an academic way to understand the relationship between independent space and everyday vernacular culture, and their tendency to carve out an aesthetic viewpoint from within. I think most independent art spaces in Taiwan are still trying to imagine the notion of “community” and remain responsive towards it.
HFC: Sometimes art or cultural spaces had to include more community engagement activities in their programming to fullfil the state funding criteria. And Run Amok has been mostly self-funded, though we are not that resourceful, we use our own way to respond to what we understand as contemporary art. When I first return to Malaysia from England, my appetite for contemporary art could not be fulfilled in Penang. I could not find many contemporary art museum or gallery. So I thought, why not start one myself? This is one of the reasons how Run Amok came into being. Then I asked myself, is there a need to compartmentalise arts in such a way, especially in a place like George Town? Here, art is engaged through various vantage points, and there’s a certain relaxedness towards it. We once put together a woodcarving exhibition, woodcarving is ubiquitous in George Town. And I wonder if we could discuss it through the lens of contemporary art? Once we spent a long period of time in a city, our agenda and sensitivity change over time. I can’t take what I saw overseas and forcefully replicate it in different locale.
We had also produced a punk-culture related visual art exhibition, some local artists questioned our intention in institutionalising the local punk culture. I was puzzled, how could a small independent space being perceived as an institution? Are we becoming more elitist in our undertakings? Our original intention was to find ways to connect with local cultures, perhaps in a more grassroot approach. This remark had me thinking for some time.
HYK: In connecting with local culture independent art spaces usually deploy two strategies: one is treat the space as a distribution platform which gathers the vigour of everyday life; second was reflect on everyday life and how it can be distilled as a form of aesthetic. I think there’s a palpable difference in the two approaches. Back to this research residency project, you joined in this project right after you’ve stopped operating the gallery space. And your project is about the Tilapia fish, could you tell me why the Tilapia fish and your trip to Taiwan this time?
HFC: I’m an artist with high anxiety, sometimes my hunches led me believe that I have discovered something immensely exciting, at the same time I worry it might just be a self-indulging thought. I will normally discuss with friends, observe their responses, and explore the possibilities in developing it further. I am not a studio-based artist, I don’t always generate idea through making. Instead, conversation is an important process for me. And it is usually driven by visual, it could either be a photograph or an image. Just like the Tilapia fish, I don’t yet have a clear direction as in how am I going to take on the subject, but I’m fascinated by its story. This sense of not-knowing where it will end up is slightly different to my other works. Perhaps, other than my “Blue and White Collection” work, I haven’t spent similar amount of time in doing research. Many works in the past were more intuitive, I may formulate the idea in a day and execute on the next day. Just like my work in the Eating Wind exhibition, I hung three wooden dolls on a ceiling fan, the idea came from AirAsia’s slogan – “Now everyone can fly”, but in actual fact not everyone can afford to fly, that’s why I chose to present the idea in this way.
I joined this project without a predetermined idea. A friend just got back from Taiwan and during his visit to Zengwun Dam, where he met a local who once learned that he’s from Malaysia and started asking if he knew that the Marble Goby fish in the dam originated from Malaysia. I find this connection interesting, why would he assume everyone Malaysian to know about this fish? And the way he connects a type of fish to a the idea of nation identity. Based on this, I was curious to find out more about the fish in Taiwan, and during a conversation with an artist friend, Chen Ching-Yao, mentioned to me how the Tilapia fish was brought to Taiwan. And later on, I decided to narrow down the scope of research to focus only on the Tilapia fish.
This is a self-indulgent project, simply because I could have one whole month dedicated on research and able to discuss my research findings in the final sharing session. Not every artist could afford this kind of time and resource. But a residency project without having to fabricate work somewhat makes me anxious. By the way, I’m curious about the way you work with other artists, do you normally support them in doing their research? Or, is it only focus on the artistic production? I personally find research is not what the art museum would focus on in the process of artistic production.
HYK: The residency programs in Taiwan lately started to pay more attention to researcher and curator, to include more research- driven projects. But to engage artist as researcher during residency program is not a common exercise, which makes this project an interesting one. Of course, every residency is different, and the support we provide vary from project to project.
HFC: Sometimes curator will research and contextualise the artwork once it’s completed. If the artist were to turn what’s being discussed into artwork, how is this different in the curator and artist’s approaches? If artist requests time or resource for research, would that be possible?
HYK: If artist request this with a clear intention in mind, of course we will try our best to facilitate. And if the work materialises through ongoing dialogues, it is also a viable way to collaborate. In fact, it can be invigorating. In situation like this, I’ll also take into account if both me and artist are willing to allow a certain level of flexibility in anticipating the final output of the work, and if we could accept or compromise each other’s expectation during the process.
Back to this project, since this is a research residency, during the one month in Taiwan, you’re not required to fabricate work nor will you be exhibiting your work. But before you arrival, you’ve already decided to focus only on the Tilapia fish, and during your time here you’ve begun looking at Taiwan fishery department’s journals, or related literary works. Without a clear idea how you are going to translate these materials into artwork yet to continuously accumulate textual reference, I find this to be an interesting working methodology, the fact that you’re required to put together a proposal without having to fabricate artwork.
HFC: It is undeniably an exciting process, but I could also be immersing in a vacuum of information; you don’t really anything to hold on to, for not knowing where you will be exhibiting the work. For artists, I think it is something we will want to be sure of. For instance, if I knew that this work will be shown at the OCAC, I will be become more sensitive towards the space, and start to visualise how the work will be shown and who are my audience. I believe every artist will carry out some form of research before they start making work, but it is only until now that I especially conscious of the process, I did not spend substantial amount of time researching before the residency. Last year, I observed Anang Saptoto was actively looking for space or interested party to exhibit his work during his residency at the OCAC; it is important for artist to exhibit the outcome of the residency. I think the fact that I am only amassing research material but not translating them into artwork is making me slightly anxious.
Do curator and artist share the same research methodology? I think is worth discussing. When I engage project as a curator, my area of research could be limiting, but as an artist, I personally find that it can be more expansive and easily justified. Or perhaps you could tell me more about your past curatorial project? Do you begin your research from art history, similarity in artistic practice; or is it based on sociology, philosophy, history etc.? My research area includes social media i.e. Youtube, popular culture; there’s a greatest sense of freedom.
HYK: I think my curatorial practice is slightly reactive. Only when the artwork is shaping up, or if I can observe some form of art ecology, then only the exhibition will come together. There must be a clearly defined issue before the work begins, then we can visualise the speculated issues, to present them within a physical space that allows discussion to take place. I think the research methodology between curator and artist to some extent, is similar, but each performs a different role during the process.
You mentioned that curator’s research area can be limiting yet artist has more freedom to explore, of course this is different to what we discussed before about artist’s intuition. When artist talks about research, shouldn’t they be thinking more about their research methodology? For instance, when we are writing a thesis we will conduct preliminary research to find out about if similar works have been done, and what are their proposed resolution or resolved issues etc. But, if we can propose a new methodology, we might get a different answer.
HFC: Are curators supposed to solve problem or to ask question?
HYK: Most projects begin with a question, and usually informed by our speculations, then we edge slowly towards the core of the question. For your research this time, are you taking a different approach?
HFC: This is my very first research which involved library visit. I am impressed by the collection of council of agriculture periodicals at the library I visited in Taipei. I am jealous of the artists in Taiwan, for having access to a wide range of information at the libraries.
HYK: During your research, what keywords did you use? What I mean is, what are you hoping to find in these materials?
HFC: I don’t have a predetermined idea of what I was looking for in particular. I was simply trying to look for the Tilapia fish related information through a broad range of materials. As I was going through the periodicals, I paid attention to how fish was photographed, information on how to catch them or ways of caring for the fish; and the cover page design. I leafed through a few types of magazines, and I saw music scores with lyric, comics etc. It reflects the socio-cultural conditions of the time, it is all very fascinating to me. I am also aware that I am a visual artist, and these materials fascinate me. While reading these magazines, other than information about the Tilapia fish, I also come across adverts about antibiotics for pigs, perhaps this is out of the scope of my research, but who knows this might lead to something interesting in the future.
And I have discovered something odd. The Internet today is like a wishing pond for anything you can think of; and for anything we can think off, it has already happened. For instance, I wanted to find out if the migrant workers in Taiwan do consume the Tilapia fish, then I typed in “Tilapia fish, migrant workers” and I found news about migrant workers who tried to catch the Tilapia fish at sewage canal and got warned off by the police. This has given me a different idea about what the Internet can deliver. During the research, I visited library, searched the Internet or had conversations with friends. But I think this is slightly different to the curator’s way of researching. Just like the last research, curator who accompanied me focused more on the text yet I was looking at the periodical layout, advert etc.
HYK: Do you think this is unproductive for you? Since you might not find relevant information about Tilapia fish.
HFC: But I will get a sense of visual culture of the era, which is important too. If the Tilapia was brought in to Taiwan in 1946, and what would the visual aesthetic be during that time. For instance, we can approximate the era by looking at the texture and the printing quality of a black and white photo.
HYK: Okui Lala was the first invited artist for this residency project, during which she engaged a few Taiwanese Hokkien language teachers(註2). And for her final sharing session, she presented her experiences in working with them. Even though she did not present her work but we can get an idea of what outcome to expect from her. For instance, in the video she made with one of the teachers to rethink the connection between visual and subject matter. Even though she’s not required to make work but it was a way to rethink about the artmaking process.
HFC: I don’t think this residency is a way for me to rethink my artmaking process, because every artist has their own research methodology. It is a luxury to dedicate one whole month on research, not many artist can afford the time unless you are resourceful. Even though this project does not include exhibiting artwork, and I don’t think that is an issue. It is beneficial for artist to have discussion at the early stage of artmaking process even if the work hasn’t been made. Ultimately, artmaking for me is to communicate, when we communicate we hope to achieve some form of resonance with the audience. To make this happens, you will look for suitable exhibition venue. Having said this, I am aware that there’s a blind spot in this project, it is a culture specific project. If I were to speak about the Tilapia fish in other country, I might not be able to generate similar level of interests. If this work was to be exhibited in another country, perhaps it has to be exhibited alongside other works to give an overview of my art practice. When a culture specific project is detached from its assumed audience and shown in say the Europe, it might become a exotic subject. It might be difficult to engender similar responses, due to different cultural sensitivity and context.
HYK: Once the residency has ended, will you still hope complete the work?
HFC: I have to make it, doesn’t matter how long it takes, the proposal needs to be materialised. Even if I can’t make the work now, I will keep the idea brewing. And when the work is completed, there will still be issues to think about. Once you spent a long time with a subject, is not easy to be detached from it. Materialising the idea is a way to commit to oneself; and it is important for the work to be shown.
HYK: Artist residency program comes in different formats, ranging from one to three months long. It normally has a fixed course: once you arrived, you have to study the environment, almost immediately get into the process of fabricating artwork, and finally showcase your work. I think this project was an attempt to break away from this format. Perhaps it is unfair to demand artist to fabricate work within a short period of time? This project was formulated as the Nusantara Archive, as a way to confront the seas, to disrupt the existing model and to envisage new possibilities.
HFC: I have been thinking about the function of residency program that involves transporting a person from his or her zone of comfort to be present in a foreign environment. It is important to experience foreign culture, physically and experientially. Just like our visit to a Tainan fish farm, during a conversation with Mr. Wu about the Tilapia fish farming business where he questioned the reliability of the information I found on the Internet. His response reaffirmed the problem of being overly-dependent on the Internet for information. This is why field trip is important. The Internet could be our wishing well, but when we engage industry expect, our research findings can easily be challenged or questioned. All in all, it is about finding a balance between the two in engaging our research topics.